Nelson Mandela's comrade of the past 55 years, Ahmed Kathrada, talks to Alan Fine about SA's first democratically elected president.
Business Day, 15 June 1999
ENTERING government was a new ballgame for all of us. When Mandela arrived in office he had nothing. To get a notebook or a pen he had to ask the civil servants. He was told every item of stationery had to be ordered from Pretoria. The same went for tea or coffee. It took time to get used to this. It is not that they were uncooperative. They just had their own style of doing things, and he had to adjust.
Mandela adjusted easily. He is a supremely confident person. Most people landing in a new situation are taken aback and take time to adjust. Not him. He settles in as if he is trained for everything. He has a commanding presence. When he gets into the office and meets new people he immediately establishes a rapport with them.
For instance, some of the staff in Pretoria - especially the black staff but some whites too - had never shaken the hand of a minister, a prime minister or a president. Some had been working there for 20 years. Of the white staff, only the most senior had ever set foot in the official residence.
Mandela put them at ease immediately by shaking hands with them, inquiring after their family circumstances. And very soon he started inviting these people to his home for meals. Unmarried ones were invited to bring their parents along.
He operates at a different level from the rest of us. It did not take long to adjust.
How much of a vision did he have of what needed to be done in those early days of his presidency?
It was, as stated, a new ballgame for everyone. We functioned from period to period and situation to situation. All along, he and the rest of the African National Congress (ANC) had a vision of what we wanted to achieve. However, when you are faced with the practical situation, you cannot stick to what you have been thinking.
Before the 1994 election some people had been sent abroad to study how governments function. He had asked (advocate) George Bizos, for instance, to study governance practices in certain countries and to brief him. That helped quite a bit.
With hindsight, it could have been done differently. The idea being put in place now of a single presidency - rather than the three separate structures for the president and two deputy presidents put in place in 1994 - will make for more efficient governance. It may not have been possible to do it any other way - some of these things were agreed with the National Party and its then-leader FW de Klerk. One had to tread carefully, especially with regard to the government of national unity. There had to be constant consultations. We could not simply dictate what we wanted to do.
Is it fair to say Mandela was a great statesman and nation-builder, but not necessarily a great administrator and implementer of policy - and that is why he delegated to Mbeki much of that work?
I would not put it that way. Mandela brought the policy and philosophy of the ANC on reconciliation and nation building down to ground level. Everyone talks of reconciliation. He gave it content. One of the first things he did was to plan to meet the widows of former presidents and prime ministers. When Betsie Verwoerd could not come to meet him, he went to meet her.
From early on he began handing over some responsibilities to Thabo Mbeki. He must have realised that Thabo would have been able to do this kind of work better than he would.
Mandela has been criticised from the left that he has devoted excessive energy to pandering to minority groups, while some members of those groups complain of too much harking back to the past. How does Mandela see it?
With regard to overdoing reconciliation, Mandela always reminds us of the realities. He points to the few weeks preceding the 1994 election. There were preparations by the white rightwing. The generals later took him into greater confidence, and gave him details of their plans to disrupt the 1994 elections. There would have been widespread bloodshed and violence. Being a realistic person, he had decided long ago that reconciliation was the course to take. Within the ANC and its national executive there was never a serious questioning of this approach. It was from outside - including in the tripartite alliance - that the questioning came.
He was very determined to promote reconciliation, to remind people, our own people, that there was going to be no military victory. People tended to develop unrealistic expectations on the strength of that aim. He was more realistic about that. Right from the start when Umkhonto weSizwe was launched it was never said we were going to win that way. It was to force them to the negotiating table. Negotiation is a two-way process of give and take, and he defended that.
He has sometimes come out strongly against whites who seem unwilling to be part of the new order. However, he has never ceased to emphasise and appeal to whites and other minority groups to consider themselves part of the majority. The criticisms he has made have received more prominence than perhaps they deserve. They need to be balanced against his overall approach.
Would he measure progress in terms of to what extent members of minority groups vote for the ANC?
The first thing he would expect is participation. But naturally he believes firmly that the future of the minorities lies within the ANC. It is the only organisation that has a record that will guarantee the future of minorities.
That, though, does not mean he will have nothing to do with non-ANC people.
How difficult has it been for Mandela's colleagues to disagree with - and challenge - him?
Since the very first ANC congress in SA (since the unbanning) in 1991 I have been speaking to the younger leadership, trying to persuade them that they must differ with him where they need to. There is the African custom of respect for the elders, and some people take it to the extent of interpreting it to mean you do not differ. I have tried to convince them that this man - and I have known him for 50 years - takes criticism. He argues his case. He can be very determined or stubborn.
But he discusses it and, in the end, he accepts the majority view.
It is said party officials were always anxious when Mandela folded away his prepared speech and ad libbed, because they had no idea what he would say next.
Many of us find that those are his best speeches. When he says "that is what my bosses told me to say", puts away his prepared speech, and says: "This is what I think …" that is when he is at his best. I do not know of any ANC leader, for example, who would have been bold enough to criticise so strongly black students who trashed their campuses.
Because he had to speak so often he could not always ad lib. Speeches had to be prepared for him. He would have preferred to speak ad lib, and he did that as often as he could. I cannot remember, though, any huge controversy resulting from his ad libbing, or any occasion where people said he should not have done it.
Did Mandela ever consider running for a second term?
No, he has always wanted to do things that he wants to do and not be bound by the formality of office. He wants to spend more time with his grandchildren. He has been saying he wants to write. He wants to write about the presidential years - publishers have already been found. When he made this proposal, it was suggested some one should be hired to do the writing. However, when this was put to him, he said he wants to do the writing.
So he has been looking forward to this time. Whether he is going to have as much free time as he would like I doubt very much. Already the diary is getting full. He is being offered lecture tours, at double the fee paid to, for example, Margaret Thatcher after she left office. He decided, though, not to consider any offers until after the election, because he was so involved.
We will see whether he will accept the invitations. He should not accept because it is lucrative, but because it is necessary.
It has not been considered whether fees should go to him or the organisation. My view is that he will not have his presidential salary any more. He will continue to have responsibilities with his new marriage and his grandchildren, whom he is very fond of. It is time he began to derive personal benefit from the work he does.
However, that will be his decision.
How frequently will he pick up his telephone at home and call the new president's office with advice?
I think he will consciously avoid doing that. He will express a view if asked, but he is sensitive to the need not to be seen to be overshadowing the new president. Even when he stepped down as ANC president and continued doing work at Shell House, he saw to it that his new office was some distance from the president's.
When he steps out of office tomorrow, what will be his greatest satisfaction and his greatest regret in terms of the achievements of the past five years?
He will step down with satisfaction that the foundations have been laid - but with the knowledge that a lot more has to be done. However, he has the confidence that there will be a team in place able to continue building on those foundations.
His greatest regret has been that he has not been able to spend more time with his family, and has not been able to spend more time in the rural areas of the Transkei of which he is so fond. And he knows we can never be satisfied with what we have achieved materially and in terms of attitudes. A lot more has to be done.